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Topic: CTF & Team colors  (Read 13070 times)

Offline myk

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CTF & Team colors
« on: May 03, 2007, 20:41:49 »
Before it's too late, these should be...

Green
Indigo
Brown
Red

These should also be alterable through the server, to suit wads that already use other colors, such as those made for ZDaemon (which copied UT, which is cool but isn't DOOM), to allow designers more freedom in their wadmaking aesthetics, or in case it's already "too late" for some reason.

Offline deathz0r

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Re: CTF & Team colors
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2007, 00:39:08 »
It's not really too late, but the last thing we want to do is go against the "standard", even if it doesn't respect the original doom2.exe colours.

If there were another active client/server multiplayer port that did use the original doom2.exe colours, we would certainly abide by that, but we don't want to alienate maps made for Odamex on other ports. We do strive to be the lowest common demoninator for maps, and changing our team colours against ZDaemon, Skulltag and even ZDoom's Red/Blue/etc isn't an easy task in regards to mappers.

Offline myk

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Re: CTF & Team colors
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2007, 19:42:17 »
What seems interesting about Odamex is its commitment to being free software and sticking close to the PrBoom branch in general functionality (plus stuff like C/S, CTF and other online specifics). This thing about a standard is rather fallacious and pretentious, though.

There is no standard already because many map sets use features specific to ZDoom, Skulltag, both, or whatever.

Other level sets will not work on Odamex, but anything mapped for Odamex is going to have to be made also according to the other engine standards? I'm betting this will fail also already because Boom features and other engine quirks themselves are slightly different in the various engines, enough to alter any complex designs.

You should stick to something basic and solid without necessarily slaving everyone to the whims of the ZDaemon, Skulltag or ZDoom coders, who do not set standards but just follow their own designs.

People wanting their maps to work on all the engines will make the extra (and easy, in Odamex's case) effort just like anyone who sticks to a Doom or Boom format making a SP/Coop map. There is no need for engines to try to stick supposed standards onto designers, nor is it a good idea.

Offline deathz0r

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Re: CTF & Team colors
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2007, 23:05:57 »
The main obstacle is that a high-quality CTF mapset has already been released for Odamex that uses Red/Blue. I'm not sure whether AlexMax or Ralphis would like their maps modified, not to mention making an updated version well after the original release will be troublesome if the filename remains unchanged.

Offline myk

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Re: CTF & Team colors
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2007, 23:53:05 »
I can understand that, and don't think that they should want to have to redo the stuff. Neither is it unreasonable to consider keeping Red/Blue/Yellow/White as default colors due to the precedents. But, in addition to personally preferring classic colors (especially when thinking about designing levels), but seeing also that others might want to choose other colors for custom design purposes or even as a clan standard (like a shirt for a football team), getting rid of the arbitrary hardcoded colors for a system similar to the one for each player would not harm anything while it would make sense.

In addition to a default, settings like this one could be settable through the wad (in a file similar to ZDoom's MapInfo or to MBF's Options lumps), and/or through the server CFG. The Odamex wad would simply have two flag sprites, standing and carried, both green, and recolored according to the chosen team colors.

Also team names; I'd stick to R/B/Y/W if the default colors are set, Team 1, 2, 3, and 4 if nothing is set, and a custom name if all the players in the team share a team name, or if the name of each of the four teams is set on the server. This would enhance teamplay and CTF giving the chance for the teams to have proper (clan or whatever) names, which if not always stupidly end up in the user name, cluttering it and causing annoyances when people change teams. Instead of that it could optionally appear along with the user name (if something like show_teamname is set to 1).

Offline Zorro

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Re: CTF & Team colors
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2007, 07:13:25 »
I can't see this happening.  The CTF standard strictly defines the objects for red, blue, gold, green, and white teamstarts/flags.  Even if you cannot play zdaemon or skulltag maps in Odamex (which may not always be the case), you can still play odamex maps perfectly fine in both of those ports (which no longer makes i an odamex map, just a well-designed portable one).
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Offline deathz0r

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Re: CTF & Team colors
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2007, 05:45:35 »
getting rid of the arbitrary hardcoded colors for a system similar to the one for each player would not harm anything while it would make sense.
Actually, they're not hardcoded. I believe the team code (especially the CTF code) is really flexible, but the scoreboard is hardcoded. I could be wrong and I'm sure denis will pop in correcting me.

As for the other suggestions, they're nice ideas, throw them in the bug tracker as an enhancement.

Offline AlexMax

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Re: CTF & Team colors
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2007, 11:08:45 »
The "CTF Standard" was more of a convenience factor than anything.  If you can find a CTF standard that's more defined than a general "make sure these map things work the same", then feel free to show me.  To be honest, I remember proposing flags of any color a while back to the ZDaemon crew, though they may not remember, because I have a set of green recolored ZDaemon flags sitting on my hard drive.

Nice idea.  I see no reason why Odamex should be limited to just red and blue.  However, the problem with such an idea is that we're strained for manpower enough as it is, and right now we'd just like to get Odamex into a state where people will bother playing it.  File something on the bugtracker as a 'feature', and maybe once we get some bigger problems sorted out we'll come back to it.

Offline Zorro

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Re: CTF & Team colors
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2007, 21:23:57 »
After playing Sauerbraten endlessly, perhaps a team system like it's would be interesting, where teams are just like second player names, and everyone who's team string matches is on the same team.  For this to work with maps which are made with a specific number of flags, there would first need to be a team limit.  The server slots the flags to teams and sets the team limit to the number of flags available on the map.  Additionally, the server sets the team colors to the colors of the available flags.

Some system allowing teams to set the team color, and allowing a team to be locked would also be nice, but I'm having a hard time thinking of the best way of doing it where it couldn't be abused.  Anyway, this functionality isn't neccesary for things to work.
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Offline myk

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Re: CTF & Team colors
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2007, 09:08:44 »
Anyway, this functionality isn't neccesary for things to work.

Yeah, perhaps I brought this up a bit early, since naturally there're a lot of more fundamental things to iron out or polish, but I felt it wouldn't hurt to comment about it (if useful, it may save work in the future if considered earlier, by foresight).

Quote
Some system allowing teams to set the team color, and allowing a team to be locked would also be nice, but I'm having a hard time thinking of the best way of doing it where it couldn't be abused.

As long as the server can optionally lock that to standard colors, some method of less strict color selection should still be possible in cases where abuse isn't plausible. Though I do see the value of looking for a method that is both as safe as possible and quite generally applicable (I mean, a method where you can still choose the team colors somehow, but even then has some safety measures to back it, beyond limitations set by the server).