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Topic: Good first release. but some ?'s  (Read 18908 times)

Offline Dred

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Good first release. but some ?'s
« on: January 20, 2007, 14:27:35 »
Well i just want to say nice job on releasing this port and the website. The networking code was a lot better than i thought it would be. However i was have some questions about the source. I was a little disappointed when someone told it was based on zdoom or csdoom. The reason is that i feel like you guys are gonna run into all the pitfalls zdaemon team has already fixed. I was hoping this was gonna be based on a completely different port (prboom for example) so it would be more unique...

So my questions are.
Did you guys think about using a different port besides zdoom?

I see your trying to make it doom2.exe lmp compatible. Does this mean that this port in future releases will be more exactly like doom2.exe than zdaemon?

Since this just released and your using an older source (csdoom). How long do you think it will take you to catch up with zdaemon in terms of fixing holes that are already patched in zdaemon  and possibly making more true to doom2.exe?

I am sure i have more questions but they escape me at the moment. Otherwise i like seeing alternatives taking things in a different direction. good luck with your port.

Offline Ralphis

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Re: Good first release. but some ?'s
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2007, 15:09:47 »
Hi Dred! Thanks for taking interest in Odamex. Let me try to the best of my ability to answer some of your questions.

The history of Odamex began as a consensus that the csdoom .62 code was some of the best in client/server doom up until now. That is why we chose csdoom to work with initially. Throughout development, certain talks began about Odamex moving to PRBoom, but that's all it was (talk).

Unlike "competing" multiplayer source ports, Odamex was founded with the intention to keep the game what it was and is, not to add tons of enhancements that drastically alter the Doom formula. It is with this mindset that we've tried our best to restore all physics, sound, etc to it's classic doom2 state while offering enough enhancements to keep it up to snuff, so to speak.

Although other source ports are also derived from the same code base (csdoom/zdoom), Odamex has basically been rewritten from the ground up. The net code is almost entirely different from what we started with and we aim to improve upon it without impairing important aspects of Doom game play.

Our project really shines in one question you asked, "How long do you think it will take...in terms of fixing holes?"

The beauty of open source is that the community has a say in the direction of Odamex. The more solid bug reports that the team receives, the more the team has the opportunity to fix and repair. We are always striving to return Odamex to Doom2 compatibility while still offering a clean, stable client/server architecture.

Thanks for your support and make sure to read through our OdaWiki to find the answers to most of your questions.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2007, 15:11:27 by Ralphis »

Offline Dred

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Re: Good first release. but some ?'s
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2007, 16:47:47 »
"The net code is almost entirely different from what we started with and we aim to improve upon it without impairing important aspects of Doom game play."

I found what you said above quite interesting. How does the network code impair the aspects of the game? could you give me an example.

This what i want to know. if we rule out lag and rule out doom2 source port engine differences and we just look at the networking code.

How does using udp packets VS the ipx protocol in doom2 effect the game? assuming you were both using the same doom2 source port and were both on a lan. except one game used udp packets and the other used oldschool ipx what would be different in the gameplay?

-Dred
« Last Edit: January 20, 2007, 16:53:35 by Dred »

Offline Libor

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Re: Good first release. but some ?'s
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2007, 18:54:05 »
Hi, i have one simple question. will odamex support PWO (preffered weapon order)?

Offline Ralphis

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Re: Good first release. but some ?'s
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2007, 20:47:57 »
How does using udp packets VS the ipx protocol in doom2 effect the game? assuming you were both using the same doom2 source port and were both on a lan. except one game used udp packets and the other used oldschool ipx what would be different in the gameplay?

The obvious difference is how lag is handled. In doom2.exe, if you lag everyone else is going to lag with you. This is because in doom2.exe you are peer-to-peer connected; Games you play in it identically synced up. Odamex however uses a client/server design that allows players to jump in and out of the action at will. This means that the server needs to be telling every client what is going on and try to do it at an equal rate to make the game appear to be in sync for everyone else.

If bugs aren't correctly fixed both client and server side, what you see in your client might not actually be happening on the server (which is what matters). Because of this, other players in the server may see an open door for example, but the door will appear closed to you. This impairs doom2.exe gameplay.

Quote from: Libor
Hi, i have one simple question. will odamex support PWO (preffered weapon order)?

No. It will also not support noswitchonpickup. We strive to maintain the balance of the original doom2.exe. Certain maps place weapons as traps (You pick it up and become vulnerable to attack for a few moments). By allowing certain players to overcome this, you are breaking the balance of the original gameplay.

Offline Dred

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Re: Good first release. but some ?'s
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2007, 02:23:01 »
ok i guess i read into what you said in your first post more than i should have. I thought you were infering a fundamental flaw in the gameplay due to the network code. like i dunno plasma grab not working or something that the network code was directly effecting in the gameplay. obviously lag is always going to be an issue. When you guys develop this more it will be interesting to see how you try to do things differently.

 


Offline Bpy6[iddqd]

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Re: Good first release. but some ?'s
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2007, 10:46:28 »
Ralphis,
thank you for bringing Odamex to doom community. I'm glad to hear that this port uses csDooM technology. csDooM was really well balanced port, convenient to most of players. I wonder why it was not so popular. The 0.1 version is quite raw, but it shows great prospects imho. The opponents' images shake of course, but is is much much better than letting port shake your sight.
It's also awesome that you support old school rather than new school. There are little os players left, so it's time to revive them =)
What about some new features? It'd be very great if you include the spectating system that makes a player be a spectator first before joining the game, like it is in Zdaemon.
The most annoying bug is that client cannot join a server correctly. I choose one server and the client connects me to another one, so it makes necessary to connect thru the console. It cannot tell the ports I suppose.

Thank you for great work for DooM community! Just a few more  additions and the DooM community will be pleased to do a great work for you =)

GJ, BW and GL.

- OS player, 1-on-1 fan, SSG user, Bpy6[iddqd]

P.S. Huh Libor, tired of autoswitch, eh? =) It's hardcore and hardcore is always cool! Difficulties should be solved by you, not evaded =)))))

P.P.S. And one more question... Will there be some type of scoreboard, exp points table, like zdaemon has... It there WILL be, please don't make it as stupid as zdaemon has. The exp there doesn't really show skills you know, exp shouldn't be counted only by frags, doublekills etc, it should depend on your opponent exp, so winning experienced opponent gives more exp, than winning n00b =) It's real zdaemon problem.

« Last Edit: January 21, 2007, 10:51:16 by Bpy6[iddqd] »

Offline user`ok

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Re: Good first release. but some ?'s
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2007, 11:05:04 »
Bpy6 you just said everything for me :)

Offline deathz0r

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Re: Good first release. but some ?'s
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2007, 12:38:19 »
Thanks for the comments Bpy6. To ansers your questions:
What about some new features? It'd be very great if you include the spectating system that makes a player be a spectator first before joining the game, like it is in Zdaemon.
Spectator support is planned, as well as demo recording. Hang tight.
Quote
The most annoying bug is that client cannot join a server correctly. I choose one server and the client connects me to another one, so it makes necessary to connect thru the console. It cannot tell the ports I suppose.
http://odamex.net/russell/odalaunch1.exe

This fixes the problem you described.
Quote
P.P.S. And one more question... Will there be some type of scoreboard, exp points table, like zdaemon has... It there WILL be, please don't make it as stupid as zdaemon has. The exp there doesn't really show skills you know, exp shouldn't be counted only by frags, doublekills etc, it should depend on your opponent exp, so winning experienced opponent gives more exp, than winning n00b =) It's real zdaemon problem.
There was talk about this a year ago, but we never came to a decision and I doubt we will anytime soon. It's something that is incredibly low on our priority list.

Offline Zaranell

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Re: Good first release. but some ?'s
« Reply #9 on: January 21, 2007, 15:02:28 »
Aw, 'noswitchonpickup' isn't supported?  Damn.  Oh well.
Nothing hurts more than the truth.

Offline Libor

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Re: Good first release. but some ?'s
« Reply #10 on: January 21, 2007, 15:16:42 »
From reading odawiki and faq I got feeling that odamex is targeted to old school players. Am I right? And somewhere else I read that jumping and freelook will be supported so why not PWO?

Anyway keep up the good work. Here, in czech republic, odamex is very hot topic and all OS players are awaiting it :)

Offline Zorro

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Re: Good first release. but some ?'s
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2007, 21:27:45 »
From reading odawiki and faq I got feeling that odamex is targeted to old school players. Am I right? And somewhere else I read that jumping and freelook will be supported so why not PWO?

Anyway keep up the good work. Here, in czech republic, odamex is very hot topic and all OS players are awaiting it :)

^^ I agree completely.  Having the option to allow "newschool" features doesn't inhibit the quality of Odamex in oldschool-mode and I dont see why throwing it in to please us retarded n00b zdaemon/skulltag players is too much of an issue.

also, as far as exp and stats gathering goes, it could still be done independantly if the core development teem does not see a need for it.  Since the port is open source, you can make any modifications you see fit - including addiing a stats system to your servers.  That is something I will probebly do myself eventually.
^^ this post has wasted part of your life ^_^

Offline Libor

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Re: Good first release. but some ?'s
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2007, 15:53:44 »
Well, the new SkullTag does not support PWO it only supports "switch on pickup".
And when talking about exp, I think it would be nice to have some kind of stats system eg. kill ratio, weapon usage and such.

Offline Shakal

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Re: Good first release. but some ?'s
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2007, 10:51:40 »
No. It will also not support noswitchonpickup. We strive to maintain the balance of the original doom2.exe. Certain maps place weapons as traps (You pick it up and become vulnerable to attack for a few moments). By allowing certain players to overcome this, you are breaking the balance of the original gameplay.

Pity, I always loved that option.
Come my minions, Rise for your master, Let your evil shine!

Offline Glaurung

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Re: Good first release. but some ?'s
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2007, 17:27:55 »
Hello everybody! I'm waiting for the completion of a "refined" version. The PWO and noswitchonpickup should be supported, because there will be old-school servers and new-school servers. These options should be toggled by the server masters, so old-schoolers may disable them if they want. But there should be available for new-schoolers.

Also it should be great to record a demo without joining a game, in this way one can play on a server and record a demo on another in the same time. I needed this option in ZDaemon several times, but it's not available.